Posts by Cold Steel

50

"Why Do Many Male Jehovah Witnesses Who Learn TTATT Grow Beards"?

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

the year once 1983 and the brother who use to study the bible with me drove by and had a full on "charles manson" looking facial hair and beard.

i asked tina, a friend what's up with him?

tina was 19 and a hot red-head woman who was partially in the religion but had problems with fornication.

Cold Steel

Yeah, but what were the consequences of keeping the beards? Can they take any administrative action against you?

And what do you mean by "priviledges"?

If one had a beard, could one baptize?

50

"Why Do Many Male Jehovah Witnesses Who Learn TTATT Grow Beards"?

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

the year once 1983 and the brother who use to study the bible with me drove by and had a full on "charles manson" looking facial hair and beard.

i asked tina, a friend what's up with him?

tina was 19 and a hot red-head woman who was partially in the religion but had problems with fornication.

Fascinating topic. What would happen if someone had a well shaved beard and wanted to be baptized? Would he be counseled to shave before his baptism or would the leaders wait until he was securely ensconced in the Kingdom Hall before he was counseled to shave?

How would such counseling take place? Let's say I'm newly converted and after about six months I decided to grow a beard? Since there's nothing in the scriptures forbidding a beard, could you be disciplined? I'd think you'd be well within your rights to grow one if you wanted. I remember the beardless Jesus in the early 70s. He was lantern jawed and had a big lock of hair on top, but his hair was cut short in the back and on the sides. In recent times I've seen him with white hair, beard and wings! What's with that?

50

"Why Do Many Male Jehovah Witnesses Who Learn TTATT Grow Beards"?

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

the year once 1983 and the brother who use to study the bible with me drove by and had a full on "charles manson" looking facial hair and beard.

i asked tina, a friend what's up with him?

tina was 19 and a hot red-head woman who was partially in the religion but had problems with fornication.

Cold Steel

Ummm...excuse an outsider's lack of knowledge.

Do you guys really have to shave in that religion? What is there in the Bible that forbids it?

Let me get it straight. The rule makers have no revelation, meaning no theophanies, no angelic ministrations, not even any dreams or visions -- yet they assume to tell people in their congregations that they can't grow facial hair? What moved these guys to make such rules? Is it that it makes them less effective missionaries?

14

So tell us what it was, then--was it just YOUR OPINION?

by Terry in

question for the "spokesmen" otherwise known as jehovah's witness' governing body.. how shall we identify the already published teaching which is now obsolete, adjusted, corrected and not to be used for current teaching?.

i know you prefer to slough it off as old light because there is still "light" in that phrase.

but, a close examination would prove that incorrect too.. .

Cold Steel

First, don't be so upset. Remember that the Jehovah's Witnesses is a sect in the midst of other sects. No one, either in the past or present, teach that the Governing Body or any previous leaders have claimed to have revelation or divine guidance in the form of visions, angelic visitations, theophanies, dreams or voices. I can't speak for the GB members, of course, but they might point out that as long as the organization has been active, its leaders have been subject to the foibles of men. In other words, it's been a learning experience, and Jehovah has allowed people to fail in their pride yet succeed in building a viable and faithful avenue for Jehovah's people to prepare to meet the bridegroom.

There is a problem with existing as an organization (not "church") with an assumed authority. After all, Jehovah hasn't exactly communicated with them; hasn't conferred any ministerial or apostolic authority, nor has he signed off on any doctrines, exactly, but they're sound enough to show that no other church can compete with them. When Jesus began to rule invisibly back in 1914, he subsequently inspected all the religions of the earth. Almost certainly he chose the Watchtower Publishers. I mean, who else was he going to choose? Mormons?? Please! No, by process of elimination, the angels looked approvingly on the Organization and joined in a heavenly chorus of, "It Had to Be YOU!"

Something else to consider is that revelation isn't necessary required to build a committed Jehovah-oriented organization. Certainly it can happen circumstantially. In other words, with all the mistakes and errors of men, the Watchtower Organization is a journey, not a destination. So along the way it becomes more competent, more perfect. But it will never be truly perfect until Jesus comes and relentlessly destroys the fiendishly wicked...you know, murderers, rapists, believers in the Trinity and such. At that point, he will publicly acknowledge the Jehovah's Witnesses as his people and then the earth will become as the Garden of Eden and all the righteous will spend all eternity here, picking flowers and petting lions, tigers and other grazing animals. They'll also be able to ride the cows like horses...but they can't eat them. But why would they want to with all the tofu and soy beans being so plentiful?

Anyway, I'm sure that's what they'd say if they were here. And who knows? Maybe I'm one of them.

Don't think of it as being the blind leading the blind. Think of it as being someone with glasses leading the blind.

16

What's wrong with the way we interpret prophecy?

by EdenOne in

i've posted this somewhere else, but i think it's worth some discussion here as well.

the original thread revolves around the interpretation of the time for the great tribulation to occurr.

i've pointed out if the problems we ran into in the past and present about interpreting prophecies are troubled by the false premise that we are living in the "last days".. .

Cold Steel

This Armageddon fixation is a dangerous thing.

Not only the fixation, but the interpretation given to it by the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists (both Millerite). According to the scriptures, Armageddon will occur in the Middle East just a bit north of Jerusalem. The problem, of course, was that at the time Armageddon was being formulated by the Millerites, Judah had not begun returning to the holy city. But Isaiah had prophesied it when he wrote: " And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:11-12)

Armageddon happens after the gathering of Judah at a time when they are still unconverted to their Messiah. At a time when all looks hopeless, the heavens will light up and their Messiah will come as long predicted in Jewish scripture (Ezek. 38-39; Zech. 12-14; Rev. 11). But when they see him, they will note the wounds in his hands and his feet and they will ask him where he received them. Zechariah writes: " And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon." According to Ezekiel, not all of the antichrist's forces will be killed with the coming of Jehovah. The Lord tells his enemy that only a sixth of them will be left. This sixth will be those conscripted into the service of the antichrist and Zechariah says that with the coming of the King of Kings. But they, too, will be converted. And there would be a great mourning throughout Jerusalem. Why? Because the Jews know full well who Jesus is, but until that moment he, to them, was just a radical and blasphemous pretender who failed to fulfill his role as temporal savior of the Jews.

But the Jehovah's Witnesses view the passage above very similar to the outrageous view expounded by a nitwit who wrote elsewhere: " Clearly this mourning was apocalyptic and referred to the national mourning the spiritual Jerusalem would engage in upon the birth of the church during Messianic days." In other words, don't take this prophecy literally as in the rest of the Old Testament. It means something wonderfully metaphysical because, you know, it can't possibly mean what it says!

If the Jehovah's Witnesses were the people of God, he would have to send them a Moses to lead them out of such thinking.

I read the Watchtower (right), and it didn't get one thing right. There was nothing
about Jerusalem, the Jews, their temple, and the two witnesses who would hold the
antichrist at bay for 3.5 years.

.

.

50

not ready to go over to the "dark side"

by nowwhat? in

after spending a lifetime in it, no one is as fed up with the wt as i am.

[my golf game would have been a hell of alot better if i was'nt banging my head against the wall on saturdays!

lol ] this forum has taught me alot more than i thought to confirm my suspicions.

Cold Steel

There is no Hell or eternal torment

Well, I can’t agree...at least technically. God is our father and a God of love, compassion and mercy. To think he will throw us into a pit of never-ending fire, I think, is a sin in and of itself. First, God does not create places of torture. Second, everything he does create for man is remedial; it serves a purpose, and that purpose is to bring man closer to him. In the majority of in-depth near death experiences, people indicate that man is primarily his own tormentor between the time they die and the time they’re resurrected. The real suffering is by murderers, rapists, those who abuse their fellow man, the greedy, and so forth. Not for joining the wrong religion. Progression is made by life reviews, in which one has a perfect recollection of their thoughts and actions, and are shown the effects they had on themselves and others.

Origen, one of the early church fathers, writes: “After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on Earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.”

In commenting on this, LDS (Mormon) apologist Hugh Nibley adds: “For Origen, according to Father Danielou, evil is nothing else than refusal to accept progress. This recalls a statement from the Pistis Sophia that hell is what lies in the opposite direction from that of progress, a state of inert and helpless being. Hell is not lively; it is the opposite of action, energy, purpose, and motion. The devil has no real purpose; all he is trying to do is thwart someone else’s purpose. He has no principle of action within himself. He is apolyon, the destroyer; satan or diabolos, the accuser.” (See entire article here.)

Jesus is God’s only begotten son—not part of a trinity.

Although Jesus is not the Father, he is Jehovah, the God of Israel, the great I AM. When Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” this so enraged the Jews that they sought to stone him. The first century Christians did not have the concept of the Trinity (as Protestants define it), and though they believed that Jesus was God in the flesh, they did not believe he was the Father. Throughout the New Testament scriptures, they refer to “God” and “Jesus” as being two distinct personages. (Example: When Stephen was being stoned, he said he saw Jesus on the right hand of God, meaning, of course, metaphorically that he was standing to the right of the Father.)

In Genesis, God is clearly speaking to at least one other when he said, “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness,” and “man has become as one of US, knowing good from evil.” Even the name “God” (or “Eloheim”) is plural, meaning “Gods.” Thus, when Nimrod was building his tower, Moses writes that God said, “And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men [had built]. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language.... Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.” (See Genesis 1 and 11)

Two interesting points. Not only was the term for “God” the pluralized form, Eloheim, we get a clue as to how the trinity really works. The scripture, above, states that, “Behold, the people is one.” We’re also told that God is one; only in this apostate form of God being one we’re told it is an unknowable mystery—yet we can understand the people being one!

Finally, in Psalms 110:1-2, King David writes: “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. ... The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.” So who was David’s Lord? Jehovah. Thus, the scripture could be rendered: “The Father said unto Jehovah (Jesus), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”

It was Jesus who was to sit at the right hand of the Father. It was Jesus who was the great high priest after the order of Melchizedek. And it was Jesus who prayed to the Father that his apostles “may be one, EVEN as WE are one.” Thus, again, we see how Jesus is one with the Father, and it’s no mystery. He’s one in purpose, not substance, with the Father.

Jehovah and Jesus expect his followers to live by righteous standards according to [the best of] their best imperfect abilities. (Sorry gay guys.)

Although most Protestant scholars today believe Jehovah and Jesus to be the same, I can’t fault you on the rest.

So for those of you that are sincere, where else is there to go? That’s why most of us stay in the Borg...that’s right I said Borg.

There are places to go with far more sound theologies. The Jehovah's Witnesses base their entire legitimacy on the assumption that God inspected all the world’s religions and chose them. But Amos wrote, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Where have the prophets revealed God’s grand decision? Many Jehovah's Witnesses fall back on the position of process of elimination. “If not us, who? Who else has such a perfect theology, scriptural exegesis and eschatology?” Actually, the theology isn’t so perfect. Many doctrines, such as man not having a spirit are demonstrably incorrect. (See PM)

As someone with a Bible trained conscience you wind up being caught in the middle. How many feel this way?

I’m not sure I catch your meaning on this one, partner! Caught in the middle of what? Are you referring to cognitive dissonance and your religion?

.

1

Amos 3:7...Where Is The JW "Truth" In the Scriptures?

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel

Amos writes that “surely the Lord God will do nothing except he reveal it unto his servants, the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Now, in the latter days, the “truth,” we’re told, has been made known to his ministerial “slaves” in New York—men who guide God’s Kingdom and who sit in judgment over this generation, not as prophets, but as representatives of Jehovah, himself.

But if true, where are the prophecies in the Bible that portend such a holy and true event? It certainly would be appropriate for God to have foreseen, and prophesied, these things.

So where in the scriptures do we see the hand of God in the creation of this latter-day kingdom?

The scriptures also state that in the mouth of two or three witnesses will every word be established. Are we to take the word of the Jehovah’s Witness Governing Body that they are who they say they are? Whenever God has done anything on Earth, he has revealed it to his servants, the prophets, and has established it in the mouths of two or three witnesses. It appears that though God chose Moses to warn the Egyptians, and had numerous witnesses who saw the plagues and subsequent miracles in the deserts of Egypt and Sinai, and sent Jesus to warn the world, and the Jews, of coming judgments, and to die for the world, and that there were witnesses to the many miracles he did, including his resurrection from the dead; that he did all of these things, yet has wholly decided to remain silent on the mission and calling of his Governing Body in the latter days. How can this be?

At no time has the Governing Body received any revelation from God, nor have they been informed of their callings before the Church.

Anciently, God gave Peter the keys of the kingdom, so that what they, the apostles, bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven. That meant that no one could baptize or confer the Holy Spirit without there being those keys. If a Christian were to baptize men and women without the authority of the Church, which held those keys, the baptism would carry no validity. The same thing goes on with the Governing Body. If a Jehovah's Witness were to baptize a man or woman today without the approval of the local church and, essentially, the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, that baptism would not be accepted by Jehovah, right? But for this to happen, the Jehovah's Witnesses would have to have the keys of the kingdom. And if they were given by Jesus to the apostles, how did they end up in the possession of the Governing Body?

So the foundational validity of the Governing Body’s claims are challenged here by three scriptural requirements that the Jehovah's Witnesses don’t possess, namely:

They have no basis in scripture written by the prophets in the Bible. No prophecies, nothing.
They have no witnesses of their divine calling. No angels, no theophanies, no visions, and,
They have no claim to the keys of the kingdom, having never claimed to have received them.

To me, these are insurmountable points that rob the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses of any claims of representing God.

Or am I wrong?

3

Donation sent too Watch Tower Society but never goes out.

by jam in

a few questions concerning wt accounts.. 1) who have control over the wt funds?.

2) if one of the gb members for example , schedule to.

give a talk in a foreign country, who determine how much money.

Cold Steel

A Catholic priest, a Protestant minister and a JW Governing Body member start talking while waiting for an airline flight. After awhile, the topic changes to how each determined which part of the donations went to their expenses and which part went to God.

"Well," says the priest, in a loud Irish brogue, "I draw a line on the table, throw the money up into the air, and what lands on the left side goes to our living expenses and what lands on the right is the Lord's."

"Hmmm," says the minister, "I do it a bit different. You see, I draw a circle on the table like this, toss the money into the air and that which lands on the inside of the circle is mine and what lands outside is the Lord's!"

Looking pleased with themselves, they nod towards the JW Governing Body member. "So how about you, Don," says the Protestant minister. "How do you do it?

"Weeeeell," says Don, "it really depends on how many members we have in the Body. Sometimes we have as few as, say, eight. Other times we have as many as 18."

"How terribly interesting," the priest said, winking to the minister. "So what part of it do ye give to the...er...Body and what part goes to the Lord?"

"Y'see, it's like this," Don replied. stammering a bit. "What we do is, we...." The men leaned towards him, watching his every move.

"Aw, hell, it's like this. We put all the money onto a table roughly this size..." The other two, smiling a bit at his discomfort, nodded and said, "Yes?"

"Well, whatever Jah catches he can keep!"

68

My Mother Passed

by Roberta804 in

thank you for all of your support durning the two difficult weeks my mother was on her death bed.

last night at 10:30pm she breath her last with my sister and i by her side.

this is a real end of an era for me as i have known little these past 8 years other than taking care of my parents.

Cold Steel

My condolances to you, Roberta. I don't know what your views are on the death experience, but it seems to me that the doctrine of the soul sleeping can add a burden for many who still hold to it.

My father passed not long ago. A naval aviator, he was quietly religious. In previous years I had prompted him on his views of death and he candidly admitted he did not know. He rarely smiled unless he was telling a joke, but he kept his religious views to himself.

Two days before his death, he took my mother's hand and smiled. "I talked to my mother today," he said. He had seen and spoken to her on two occasions, he said. He was raised in a broken home and his father was the town drunk. Sometimes he would come in and literally beat him up. My grandmother usually stopped the beatings, but she was small and he often just brushed her off. Finally one day he came in and proceeded to hit my dad. His mother, bless her heart, picked up an iron skillet and whacked him on the head. Being a nurse, she cleaned him up, treated his wounds and he literally never knew what hit him.

My grandfather on my mother's side also saw and spoke to several family members and friends. Just before he died, he pointed towards the foot of his bed and tried to talk. He was very excited and was frustrated that no one but him could see. I can scarcely believe these could be deceptions, as it happens too often. The Jehovah's Witnesses point out rightly that Jesus when he was dead, did not go to Heaven. According to Peter, he was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, by which he preached to the spirits in prison, which once were disobediant during the days of Noah. Having read many near death experiences, I'm convinced that the righteous go to Paradise, "a place of learning or school or the spirits, in which everything they learned on Earth will be made [clear] to them." Origen said. It's a place where the righteous await judgment while the wicked remain in prison, or "the pit."

I say all this because thinking of a close relative ceasing to exist would be troubling for me. And "soul sleeping" is not what the first century Christians believed.

I recommend, if you're interested, a book by George D. Ritchie entitled Return From Tomorrow. After reading many similar accounts, this one not only is one of the most credible in my view; it's also very well written. You could easily get in to it even if there was no NDE. His description of running over the desert brush, increasing in speed and traveling through the air is amazing. He stopped in one small town on his way to Virginia and attempted communication with a living person, to no avail. He didn't know where he was, but later, after being reunited with his body, he and some friends drove through the town and George recognized it immediately. It was Vicksburg. His description of it at night was eerie. The town looked deserted. He said all the stop lights were blinking red and that there was a large blue neon sign advertising Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer and that there was a bar very close to it.

It's a very comforting book, especially if you read it with someone.

Best wishes.

3

Jehovah's Witnesses Foundational Claims...What Are the Selling Points?

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel

Well all of that is highly debatable, but the membership by and large have bought it lock, stock and barrel.

Several doctrines are bizarre and some are just plain wrong. Consider:

Man doesn't have an immortal spirit, but at death ceases to exist. Granted, other Adventist movements buy into this doctrine, but it's highly controversial. When ancient Christian libraries were discovered circa 1947, this doctrine suffered some serious setbacks. Even though they're apocryphal, they indicate that the first century Christians believed that man has a spirit. In other words, this doctrine is by no means settled.
Genesis 6:1-2: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." JWs believe that angels "materialized" and had sexual intercouse with mortal women. This ridiculous exegesis came from a silly fictional apocryphal source.
Armageddon: Previously mentioned. The JW exegesis interprets this as a worldwide conflagration where Satan stages his last great assault on Jehovah's people. Actually, it takes place in Jerusalem and is an assault against the sons of Judah. (Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 38-39)
Faithful and Discreet Slave. We all know about this one, and the presumptuous interpretation that's been made, specifically, that it refers to a group of people who have not been called or ordained.

Well, the list could go on, but you get my drift. The question is how the Jehovah's Witnesses can possibly claim to be Jehovah's kingdom on Earth? We Latter-day Saints can point to angelic ministrations and the restoration of apostolic authority, all witnessed by at least one other person. LDS Apostle Orson Pratt wrote: "The Church has been organized, by divine revelation, angels have appeared, the apostolic authority has been restored by the ministration of angels, and the kingdom of God has been set up in fulfillment of the promise made to the ancient Prophet Daniel—a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, never again be rooted out of the earth and never be committed to another people, but it shall continue forever...."

The Seventh Day Adventists claimed that Ellen G. White received revelation regarding seventh-day worship. She also claimed miraculous occurrences. Her visions and revelations were something she could point to and claim authority. Her website states that " From the time she was 17 years old until she died 70 years later, God gave her approximately 2,000 visions and dreams. The visions varied in length from less than a minute to nearly four hours."

The Catholics and the Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) claim apostolic authority in an unbroken chain going back to the apostles and Catholicism is now claiming many revelations from Fatima to others like Saint Malachy.

All the above cite their reasons for believing that they represent God's kingdom on Earth. But the JWs insist that all manmade religions are in error. Yet they can't produce any claims to apostolic authority, to bind in Heaven and Earth. No revelations, no visions, no dreams, no theophanies. So how would they know they were chosen by Jehovah in 1919?